Category: the Rant Board
Hi people, i just thought that i would vent some frustration on the subject of paying for a screen reeder.
I am thinking of buying a laptop but i am put off by the prospect of having to fork out 700 pound just so i can access my computer the same way as everyone elce.
Do you not think that it should fall to your government or something simler to pay for it? Afterall they are alwaise going on about equal rights and stuff.
What do you all think?
Thank you for posting this. I might just use this for my next research paper topic.
I agree with you. I created a topick long time ago about screen reader pricing being very high. The good thing is that we started having some free or low cost screen readers the last few years and some more might come in the future.
One of them is the open source screen reader N v d a www.nvda-project.org.
Also another free one is the thunder screen reader at www.screenreader.net
Also system access to go is free at www.satogo.com
Also the developer of usa games www.usagames.us anounced the development of a screen reader called universal access or something like that so in the near future i think blind people will have some free or low cost choices appart from the expensive once.
yes sa to go is free. it's good. though SA access mobile is pretty good at £325 for two pc installs and a U3 pen drive. £80 or there abouts for subsequent years. this includes screen reader plus content from the SA browser which enables surfing the net etc. also plug the key in to a pc and you have speach. dam good me thinks for the cost of the full package.
having said that about SA, I do believe screen reader access should be free, but not many programmers will put in the work for such a small market as blind consumers. this is the major reason for the price hike in screen readers.
You're so right! Screen readers should be free, and come with computers! Oh wait! They do! Get a Mac, and stop whining. Otherwise, fork over the cash for a quality Windows screen reader.
I'm a little bit torn on this one. I was complaining to my mobility instructor a while back about prices of blind technology but he pointed out that blind people get significcant Social Security money every month, just for being blind and he didn't feel it was necessrily fair that we got that and we also got everything free we needed, sighted people need cars, car insurance, gas etc whilst we often get free rides for instance. I'm not sure if I buy this argument as it relates to computers necessarily though and I'm happy to see the rise of the sfree screen readers. Fact is though, that writing these applications is very difficult at times and requires a lot of skilled programmers who need to work for money, who should pay them? The government, the users .. if it's the users the size of the market does not exactly allow for huge influxes of cash, not unless the markets can be enlarged, like System Access is hoping to do. But often you can get free, or hugely reduced, screen readers through grants, funds and organizations, employers also often pay for this. What I find worse than screen readers are prices of braille displays, sadly overpriced, although I understand the production is a very expensive process.
Microsoft took the conscious decission a long time ago to not make a screen reader for Windows since their suggestion to do so met a huge resistance from the screen reader manufacturers, and as for Macs, they're more expensive than PCs, much less common (access to employers computers) and their screen reader still has a long way to go before it matches any of the Windows ones, by all accounts. It's still certainly a good endevor and I hpe to see them get even better in the coming versions of their OS.
I'd say that the Mac screen reader is about on par with System Access, and even maybe with Jaws if people took the time to script for it, but currently, no scripts have been produced. Like System Access though, the level of accessibility to a particular program will lie more with the programmers of that program than with the screen reader itself.
I think Jaws and Window Eyes are so expensive because they actually write script files for the more inaccessible programs.
That being said, I think the people we should be whining to are programmers of software. For instance, on the Mac side, Microsoft just put out a beautifully accessible version of Office, Office 08. It's beautiful, except for one thing! The text input area is completely inaccessible! Is that Microsoft's fault, or Voiceover's? It's Microsoft's! They went all the way, and then dropped the ball at the very end. Should the screen reader compensate, or should Microsoft fix their stupid error? I think Microsoft should fix the problem. It works the same way on the Windows side.
iTunes, while totally accessible on a Mac, is inaccessible in Windows. Same goes for Quicktime, and my opinion is that it's not the screen reader's responsibility to fix that issue, it's the software programmers. The tools are there, they should use them.
I've always been remotely interested on what mackintosh comes out with. Although I haven't used anything that further dates the I-mac. With the huge improvements on most speech stuff compared to the 80's when the old fashion echo and cricket sounded archaic at best, I'd have to say that perhaps it's worth the investment. You may notice already that pretty much all of the free speech software you can get have limitations once you get around the way of customizing the voices to what you're used to. So I'd think twice about putting such software in the league with the ones you need to pay for such as jaws and zoomtext. In my case I use both. With all of that said I think it's great that there are ways now for someone to access simple applications and get to the desk top if nothing else but for a back up for when your jaws crashes. I'm still using an older version of jaws which when it crashes you have to reboot. So I've used nvda and system access before as a final say in the matter. Especially if I'm not even closed to wanting to reboot or shut down. Often when jaws crashes everything else still works. I have colour schemes to help me part way and then the back up for everything else. Incidentally in case you might not remember, the echo speech and cricket used for apples and mackintoshes were a separate box that you'd attach to your computer. Sometimes they were built in to the machines itself. I used to hate having to open the computer and either inserting or pulling out one of the 7 cards hooked inside. So installations and rearrangements were difficult because each card was huge about half the size of your arm. With sharp raised points that you had to match in to the creases of the slots. The slots at the bottom of the machine were raiser sharp too. Anyone who's opened up an apple or a commodore can verify all of this. As you worked you had to have the power out or you'd burn it up because electricity runs threw those slots to power whatever card you were putting in. A monitor, a printer, voice card, the versa Braille, etc. Someone spoke of Braille screens which made me think of the versa brail which was the dinosaur version of the Braille and speak. Surprisingly enough with the Braille display the machine didn't cost too much. Although most programs out here and the blind organization state wide were loaning them out to people. Of course, they were pushing these things for the schools. The data to this machine was stored on cassettes. You could upload it to the apple or Mack. It would be years later around 1989 that they slowly retired this machine. It was a bulky note taker about the size of a lap top that one would carry in a leather nap sack. As they started fazing out of these machines they had a new one that used floppy disks. That wasn't too popular and around the fall of 1990 they had an exchange program for the new brail and speak. So anyone that owned the versa brail could get the new upgrade. Around 95 the school I attended pushed for their students to get brail screens instead of speech. They were concerned that if one relied too much on speech they'd become poor spellers. As a result we were given ibm laptops with the brail screen. The whole package would have ran you around the area of 45000 dollars. The school funded for each student to have one of these. I later dropped out, went my separate way and found my own work.
Ah, the old Apple II days with the Echo/Cricket! I remember getting cut on those sharp pannels where you ran the reakout cables from the synths and such things, and on those slots. Thanks. Don't ever compare a Mac to an Apple II again. Lol!
As a matter of fact around 1992 most of the apple places, the small little shops around the downtown area where I live were closing. If you needed an apple worked on you had to go to the places that worked on Macintoshes. In 1991 when woca (world organized computer alliance) came to town, they foresaw the replacement of the apple machines with the i-mac. Also in league were the Amiga machines. They were on display. The last apple I had and still keep in storage as a sort of memento was the apple 2 GS. It was more modern looking than the 2E, 2C and the 2plus. Instead of bulky cards for each component, everything was a straight plug in. You had no reason to open the machine. In those days people used the GS for dialling BBS's using a 2400 bodd modem. The GS also had an external disk drive for 3 and a half's which I never used. Also everyone that used apple had an extent of knowledge with basic programming. You had to know some of it if you wanted to do anything. Unlike nowadays where everything you can think of has been done for you. In 95 at the school I attended and was then volunteering at their radio lab, the people using Macintoshes ran outspoken I think it was called. I never followed threw with that. I stuck to the portable Toshiba lap top (the navigator) with the Braille screen and word perfect. Of course we've come a long way since that too.
actually, i disagree.
apart from the fact we are blind, how else are we diffrent to others?.
anyway, how would the companies (like freedom scientiffic) make money?. sure i see all your points...but it's like saying because we're blind, everything should be free, computers, travel, insurance. money's a fact of life, nothing will change that
not to mention that having a computer is a luxury. I mean sure you need it for work and for school, but most programs and organizations that will fund for blind people to have things usually it's out of necessity. Some blind people believe in different schools of thought. There are those that have the feeling of entitlement because of who they are. There are others that want to earn what they feel they're entitled to. It's also another thing if you simpley can't. However, as long as having a computer isn't work related or something you can survive. For me entitlement would be to stay off the streets and have enough money to pay for food and shelter. Others might turn it around to say it's owed to them. As long as one cares about perception from an external sense, it ought to make you more self conscious as far as how everyone else perceives of you. With that in mind from the outside in, I suppose it wouldn't just be focused on the disabled community at large. As abled bodied, regular functioning human beings can have the idea that everything should be given to them regardless of work or otherwise. We see it all the time accept people complicate things more by playing a race card.
No! I totally understand the point. If I buy a computer, I want it to work for me right out of the box. I don't feel that I should be penalized by being blind by having to fork over $1000 plus for a screen reader. if I want a luxury one, sure, but there should be some free solution out there that works reasonably.
your mentioning having a computer work straight out the box made me think of the old asap cards you could get years ago for the dos machines and you could take the card with you to use on other computers. Sort of what they're trying to do now with system access. The only down side of it now being that you need the internet running for it to work.
But when you turn a Mac on for the first time, it comes up talking, and gives you the choice whether you want it to continue or not.
is that really how they are from factory? I haven't really fooled with those too really know. Well whatever. That's way cool!
Yes, it is. They are fully accessible straight from the factory and you can even independantly install the operating system with speech and braille support.
well at least the have us white caners in mind then when they make the machines. Kind of like some of the home stereo systems they made a few years back with voice read outs for the radio so you can tune around. Also Kenwood puts out a line of equipment which are blind friendly too.
Well I got my copy of Window Eyes payed for by Voke Rehab, so I have no complaints here about makin' screen readers free. But with that bein' said, I've been wonderin' why synthesizer companies such as Realspeak or whatever premium speech synthesizer you like are so expensive. I realize that they are high quality voices and they use humans instead of synthesized speech but come on. Some of the voices such as the female voices from Realspeak or Neospeech don't deserve to be expensive like the male voices. I don't mean to sound sexist or anythin' but I've heard Realspeak Jennifer or Jill and they suck. I bought Realspeak Tom 'cause he's more high quality then they are. Except one thing, I had to download a program called Text Aloud before I could use Tom. I bought him stand alone by the way.
I guess it's the same reason the screen readers are so expensive...It takes time and energy to create them. That said, the Mac comes with a free screen reader, and the highest quality voice I've ever heard, also included.
I'm curious, how does the question of whether screen readers should be free or less expensive, have anything to do with issues of self esteem? I am a believer in the saying "you get what you pay for" so if you want the best, high quality, great support, it's only fair that you pay those who offer you their services. But, are we getting the best service from the costly screen readers? Is it really a smart investment to purchase a laptop for $400, but have to pay $1200 in order to check email? What about your current or next employer, wouldn't they just love to be able to just download, without charge, or with a small donation, a screen reader? Would this help more people get their foot in the door, in terms of employment, much faster?
Mac has one answer to the solution. Open source screen readers are another. I'm an individual without the large sums of cash that a government agency has to spend on accessibility, so, are these large companies marketing to individual consumers, or a government agency with a large budget?
As more consumers smarten up, as more people begin to see that they do have options when it comes to accessibility, they will select what best suits their needs and budget. I don't think that will include being overcharged for something that they can get for free, or with a donation of their choice.
So, either the large companies will adjust their prices, completely stick with government contracts or just go out of business.
That's true. Mac has one of the best voics I have heard. I have one because I got one when I started my tech school. I had never used a mac before, so I was wondering what kind of screenreaders it had. I have Alex, and no doubt, the most human sounding voice I have ever heard from a computer. The companies have to make money somehow, to keep working on devoloping these screenreaders, so that's y we have to pay for them. U could go and get a free screenreader like NVDA, and you'll be fine.
I have a feelin' that Microsoft and Nuance and whatever synthesizer companies will start makin' the voices sound as real as Mac's Alex. Is it true that he actually breathes while he's readin' things? That's crazy. Microsoft and 'em have to take big time notes on that.
It is true. Between sentences, Alex will take a breath, and when it encounters a comma, a shorter breath. You can also adjust its inflection.
That's kind of creepy, actually.
there are some voices from a t and t which also seem to breathe as they speak. AT and t crystal is one. it's scary sometimes.
Yeah well it probably doesn't sound as real as Realspeak Tom or that Alex voice right?
realspeak voices are great too, i have lots of them both for my mobile phone and for pc. a t and t charles is another voice which seems to be really human. get that reading a bill or something, and it almost says, pay it now! heheheh.
Well I just purchased Realspeak Tom last month because I heard him readin' the weather for the Noah's National Weather Service in Fargo North Dakota. At least I think it was him, can't tell 'cause they have the voices soundin' like a telephone. There was also one girl that they had readin', dunno if it's realspeak or not, but she sounds like she has kind of a lisp sometimes. She reads the current temperatures on that same station. So yeah, that's how I grew to like the Realspeak voices.
No, it's actually not creapy at all. In fact, it's so human-sounding, you barely notice it's doing it unless you really stop and listen to it close.
Okay back to free screen readers and all. Have you forgotten that you must as a sited person pay for other programs to use you computer, such as office, accounting programs, Adobe if your working with large companies, or forms, and there are a host of others the sited, and blind world need besides screen readers that cost. You can order these on the computer, but everytime you do the price of that machine goes up. Now if you shop you can get Jaws for about $700, or so, but adobe, will cost about $450 or more, and I could go on and on about programs that simply are not free.
You have missed the point, which, in my estimation was this...A person who is sighted can buy a computer, bring it home, plug it in, turn it on, and in theory, it will work for them right away. If a person who is blind wants to buy a Windows machine, he has to buy this extra piece of software, just to be able to use it effectively. The extra piece of software is upwards of $800. The point was, one shouldn't have to pay this cost to use basic computer functions like the Internet and email and such things.
While I'd gladly pay for something to enhance productivity, as with most computers, something basic should come with them for accessibility, and no, narrator doesn't cut it.
Agree with the basic point here that as long as the screen readers do not add functionality that sighted people would not get out of a computer, it is a bitter pill to swallow to pay more for that software than for the computer it runs on (although, in all fairness, you can't just put downright the price of the software down, it has 5 user license, at least Jaws does, so you should really divide by 5 or, perhaps, 2 if you realistically only use it on 2 computers).
There are different models in the industry and I believe/hope that they will help resolve this.
Apple, I believe, have much stricter control over software that runs on their platform than Microsoft does (I might be wrong, but it's my percetpion, may be it's just the availibility), and therefore Apple can do more about enforcing their quality and compliance standards (if I am totally wrong I'd like to be corrected surely). Thus they stand a better chance of having their software work directly with third party solutions and make them more accessible without having to write the extensive, complicated and, often, inaccurate work arounds that e.g. Jaws uses to get information from the applications. This is one way to go but it does limit possibilities and stiffles innovation, to some extent, it's like saying you can only use a certain type of hammer to build ahouse.
Another approach is the freeware/open source development and screen readers, like System Access, that take a less accurate but lower cost approach. I think if the price of SA comes down a bit further that we might be talking a revolution. They're aiming for a much bigger market which would allow them to bring down their price. They also claim to be using a whole new approach, avoiding digging into the display drivers and using Microsoft's built in interface to get the information instead, as Windows moves more and more towards XML based technology such interfaces should improve and, thus, it should be easier to separate the presentation layer from the data layer. In other words, currently Jaws scans info sent to the screen, determines this should look like a list box and then maps the data to its internal list box and displays it. Instead it should be able to get the nformation straight from the source that generates the data,, have the data desscribed programatically, then Jaws can decide what to do with that info and how to present it best to the user, the difference being that the presentation and precise data control on the screen becomes less relevant. Microsoft is moving in this direction with Vista, even if they didn't do a great job to start with. But this requires both strong OS commitment to keep the module standard and enforce it and also a whole new approach and code base for the developer of the screen reader. But as such developments continue we ight see a much cheaper alternative of screen readers become availible. We can keep educating software developers of accessibility needs. This has never been done as much as it should, perhaps. Even adding accessibility lessons as standard part of any html course could hugely improve web page development, so far developers seem totally unaware of the issues blind programmers face. I think education can go a long way, especially if we want to force the developers of apps to make them accessible to us, at least to a sensible extent (we can't really expect drawing programmes etc to be accessible due to content).
If it is true that SA will become preinstalled on the new Linovo PCs and laptops (my understanding is that this is in the works, or at least the SA2Go platform) that's already a huge leap forward for PCs and will force the current players to rethink their stradegy.
I hope we'll start seeing a market with free or less than $100 software that comes right out of the box and allows you to enjoy all the basic functionalities of a PC. Where Jaws and other screen readers come in would be to make more specialized versions to work accurately with more advanced programs, visual studio, Excel, custom scripting for certain applications. This would be the case but hopefully further development and separation between presentation and data part of applications might make such scripting easier and cheaper.
cheers
-B
Apple has no control over third party software. Back in the Apple II days, they did, but now that Mac has moved to a Unix-based architecture, they no loner have the control tey had in the day.
However, if software is built to the standards of the Coco programming interface, it and Voiceoer will play very nicely. Pretty much the same for Windows software and Jaws/Window Eyes. If it's written with standard windows, buttons, and other controls, it'll play nice.
There is a built-in scripting language with the Mac platform, called Apple Script, which works with Voiceover as well, however, not many people have developed VO scripts yet, simply because while the Mac is certainly a viable platform, government agencies, and Windows users who don't bother to do their research on the issue still have an unappreciative attitude of what a computer and software giant is trying to do to improve accessibility. I appreciate constructive discussions like his, however, because it gives us Apple users a floor to clarify some of the falsehoods associated with the technology.
I understood the point well, but my point is that things have to also be purcheased by sited people to make their machines work as they want them to basic, or not. Now this argument could go into other areas, such as, due to you being blind you get other services, even screen readers, free if you know where to ask, or look. Going to college for a year will get you a free screen reader, and in most cases a free computer. Sighted people don't have that as easy, unless they get a grant, but this is across the board for Blind people. *smile* Now your saying "you shouldn't have to go to school just to get free equipment, and what if your to old for school? Face it this world is mainly settup for people that see, due to that being mostly the natural state, so a screen reader is not a basic program, but a specialized one that doesn't sale well to the masses, so it cost something and is not included. I guess all the people with one hand should complain that all computers should come equipt for them, and have large print screens, and braill displays, and speech software for these that can't type, and this list goes on. Computer manufactors do try to give a very broad choice and accessibility programs built in, but they will never be able to cover them all, so get smart, and find a place you can get your screen readers paid fore.
I agree with Jesse about Narrator not cuttin' it. It doesn't do fuck all for the net. And also, I wanna add somethin' about the college thing. You gotta understand that once you're done school or college, around here everythin' goes back to the company that gave it to you. E.G., when I was in high school, I had Jaws and a computer. But when I was done school, I ended up givin' it back to the Department of Education. So basically, I was on my own to find another computer and a screen reader. I got a grant from Voke Rehab 3 years ago for my PacMate, but it didn't support my internet service provider since it was DSL and a program was needed for the DSL connection to work. But my internet service provider, or should I say, my former internet service provider did not have the software to work for a pocket PC such as a PacMate. So I was lucky enough that my foster parent's brother works for a computer company and that was when I got my first laptop. Unfortunately, I didn't know where to go to get a full version of a screen reader so I was forced to use demo versions of Jaws and Window Eyes. It was the end of 2005 when Voke Rehab offered to pay for a copy of Window Eyes. So anyway, my point is that you can't rely on schoolin' for the rest of your life. You're gonna end up gettin' a screen reader the hard way.
Well, there are ways to get grants, and things like that from private organizations, but the bottom line is, lots of people can't, or don't wish to. They wish to buy the technology themselves, rather than relying on outside sources to give it to them. Like I said, the easiest way to afford everything at once is to get a Mac, but some people don't want to go that route. For those people, Microsoft should just flip the screen reader manufacturers the bird, and make something to incorporate into Windows, much like OS-10 does.
um, we've over looked something here, and it was mentioned. it's called NVDA. you can create a thumb drive version of it which will start when you plug it in, and there are no demos or display drivers to fight with. problem solved
shit in missouri as long as ya finish college, ya can keep your stuff rehab buys for you because you have fofilled the agreement that you would actually use it to the full extent ya could and you did as you promised, so they reward you by letting you keep your equipment and then ya got equipment to get a job with.
you don't have to pay computers come with a screan reader already, just not the one everyone likes. and you can down load dimoes.
I agree with jesse's post 30. Also, narrator will not cut it, but it will work for some things, like getting a computer set up, after that, go and get NVDA, at least that will let u do basic functions with your computer with no problems. Dimoes, what is that?
i think she meant demos but she can't spell.
Anyone can make an honest typo like that one. Just ... proofread if you have the time ...
heheeh yes i know, but proof reading is so easy with screen readers these days! so do it!
hmmm. the nerrator isn't really a good screen reader. but that's just me.
No, it's not, but like Mike said, if you don't have sighted help to install Jaws, or whatever otehr screen reader, you'll need it to get started, but that's about all it's good for.
Does anyone know of any of the free screen readers which will read msn messages and things similar to jaws when you press the graav key, instead of having to go through the stupid message history and everywhere else? I think it is good though that they've updated NVDA and Thunder.
Why should blind people have to pay for anything? Everything should be handed to us on a golden platter because we're entitled to it. Sheesh! Get a life!
To ScreamingTurtle, you don't need sighted help to install JAWS. I don't know about WindowEyes or System Access, but I know with JAWS, it can be done by a totally blind person independently.
Luckyluc20, that was awesome. I love your sarcasm. I just came across this topic. It is tempting to fall into the entitlement mentality that so many on this board have. I admit it. Being blind can be a real bitch sometimes, and it's not always fair. God knows I get frustrated, too. But Forereel raised some valid points. I'm not going to repeat them all here, only say that I agree with him. We already get more handouts than many, and how does asking for more and more handed to us make us equal? Makes us look like whiners.
Besides, Serotek and GW Micro are starting to level the playing field by offering payment plans for their respective screen readers. They're making System Access and WindowEyes more affordable to the average blind consumer.